New podcast: Professor Johanna Wyn on Talking Teaching podcast

Professor Johanna Wyn in conversation with Dean of Melbourne Graduate School of Education Dean Professor Jim Watterston on Talking Teaching podcast

Professor Johanna Wyn, lead chief investigator of the Life Patterns research program, is interviewed by Dean of the Melbourne Graduate School of Education Professor Jim Watterson on his podcast Talking Teaching about the history of the project and plans for the future. You can listen to the podcast below:

And you can read the transcript below:

Transcript

Genevieve:
Welcome to Talking Teaching.

Johanna:
We really don't want to be like the Generals preparing for the last war. It's so easy to say, "Oh, when I was young, this is what I did, and this will be good for you too." It's really important to understand what has changed and what hasn't, and understanding that whatever the goalposts were for the previous generation, those goalposts have moved.

Genevieve:
Hello, I'm Genevieve Costigan. In this episode of Talking Teaching, we'll explore the differences and the commonalities that have emerged from the Life Patterns longitudinal study. This study, which began in the early 1990s, has followed two generations of young Australians who left school in 1991 and in 2006, commonly known as Gen X and Gen Y. Now thanks to another Australian Research Council grant, the study will now include a new cohort of Gen Z's or Zoomers as they are sometimes known.

Genevieve:
Professor Jim Watterston, Dean of the Graduate School of Education at the University of Melbourne talks to professor Johanna Wyn, who leads this groundbreaking study about what we've learned over the past decades of the challenges young people face and what their greatest concerns are.

Genevieve:
Professor Wyn specializes in longitudinal research of young people, documenting their transitions across the dimensions of education, work, wellbeing, relationships, and family life. She is a fellow of the Academy of Social Sciences in both Australia and the UK. Over to you, Jim.

Jim:
Well, today I'm joined by professor Johanna Wyn, who has had an illustrious career. We'll be talking specifically about the Life Patterns research program, which started with a secondary school cohort who graduated, I think in 1991. Since that time, a second cohort was introduced who left secondary school in 2006.

Johanna:
That's right. So now this year they're aged between 32 and 33, we also have continued to track them. Of course, that gives us an incredible opportunity to compare the lives of effectively two generations and how they have built their lives, how they've used education, how they've managed all the things that get thrown at you as you're making your life and building that trajectory.

Johanna:
We are now being funded to begin a third cohort. We're hoping to recruit around 4,000 students in their year 11, so that we capture them at the time when they're making some really important decisions about their futures. This will enable us to tell the COVID story for this generation.

Jim:
It seems to be one of the great pieces of work that has an impact on school performance, school behaviour, and teaching and learning. So, can you tell us a little bit about that and a bit about the methodology of how this has worked over the 30-year period?

Johanna:
I'm sure everyone would be keen to know exactly how do you do this, that we have a process where we do surveys of the entire sample. So at the outset, that will be a sample of around 4,000. People opt out, but it still retains a very high level of participation over time. We also select a sub-sample and then we interview once every two years, so we do get that more personal feedback. So, we do a number of things that both quantitative deep drilling into one of the big patterns and also the qualitative work that enables us to say we think this means that this is happening or that's happening.

Jim:
Notionally these three cohorts are generally described as Gen X, Gen Y and Gen Z. Is that right?

Johanna:
That will be right as it so happens. Yes, it wasn't really set up that way originally, but as events have happened, that is exactly how it has worked out. So, that's a useful kind of process for being able to look at what's changed over time. We really don't want to be like the Generals preparing for the last war. It's so easy to say, "Oh, when I was young, this is what I did, and this will be good for you too." It's really important to understand what has changed and what hasn't, and be able to work with the realities of new circumstances and support young people to work with those new circumstances.

Jim:
So, let's explore this work through the three themes that you've identified to speak about today. So the first thing, you've turned precarious work, the gig economy and non-standard work. Can you talk a little bit about your findings in that area?

Johanna:
I think this is one of the most challenging things for us in education, because in a way the rationale for doing really well in school is that you'll get a good job. The gig economy and the increasing precarity of work, that people are on short-term contracts and little bits of piecemeal work means that connection is much harder for young people to make.

Johanna:
There's a lot less job security, so we are looking at young people struggling to work out how can I even have a long-term relationship? I don't have the funds to support living in a longer-term relationship,
everything's too short-term. I might have to move, I might have to go back to education, there's no stability. So those things are really pressing for young people and for their families as well, as families look at having to sometimes bear the costs of young people's dependence for much, much longer than they would have once.

Jim:
Now knowing about the challenges that are being faced in a quickly growing economy that's sort of leaving a few people behind, how do schools respond? You did say that traditionally schools have been about preparing young people for a job. Is that something that we should rethink?

Johanna:
Yes, we do and we don't. We are preparing young people for a job, but that job may be long, long way down the track. What we're finding with our cohort too, these are the ones who are now aged 32 and 33, it takes at least five years of constant strategizing after they graduate. So not just finish school, but graduate from a tertiary degree to get a little bit of a hold on the area that they want to do work in, the job they want to get. Even then, it doesn't necessarily mean it's a secure job, it just means, yes, they've made that leap now.

Johanna:
We do need to be aware that we're not just giving young people, hopefully we're not just giving them skills in doing literacy, in being good at those academic subjects or being good at more traditional skills, but we're also giving them skills in thinking, in being flexible, in understanding the world. You need to be able to read the world. Teachers have always done this kind of work, but it couldn't be more important now, as we need to see young people being able to hold onto hope, being able to strategize in ways that are flexible about the skills they have, about the knowledge they have and use it in diverse ways.

Jim:
So the second thing, which sort of runs pretty coherently out of the first thing is really about the education work nexus, which we've talked about, and do we really need to have the mission of education be around preparing young people for a job. Because I think I'm hearing you saying it's more about preparing them for life.

Johanna:
I think as you said yourself, Jim, if we want to really support young people, we are also having to own up to preparing them for life in a broader sense. That comes back to enabling them to be resilient, they're going to have to understand a lot more about how mental health is protected, how they remain mentally and physically safe for the long journey to proceed to achieve their aims.

Jim:
I suppose you've been able to see some of that through the two cohorts, but I would imagine the new cohort that you're now recruiting will give you a really great insight into how much the world has changed since you began the study.

Johanna:
Of course, we've been interviewing cohorts one and two in the interim as well. COVID is having a dramatic impact on them as well, and it's starting to really bring to the fore the kinds of things that people are finding helpful. I think that's going to be really useful feedback into schools and to other practitioners.

Johanna:
Clearly there are personal qualities that people can foster, but also obviously it's the network. So it's the fabric of relationships that are supportive, not just economically, but also socially and culturally, but it's also the fabric of things in terms of our more institutional supports. This is proving to be so incredibly important. We're finding that one of the key things, perhaps ironically given the breakdown in the nexus between education and work, education is still a key resource.

Jim:
So, I guess schools and education in general is focused on ensuring that all people are lifelong learners, rather than just preparing for a job, a single job.

Johanna:
It is about lifelong learning, absolutely. What kind of a learner am I? How do I learn things? How do I identify what I need to learn? Those are some of the skills that they're going to need in spades.

Jim:
So, you identify the third theme of the huge body of work that you've been involved in as being how do young adults make sense of all of this? You identify three really important qualities that will sustain them.

Johanna:
We're looking at a broadened concept of resilience that encompasses all the social things, as well as the personal qualities and looking at how people manage to create a narrative or a story for themselves that enables them to go forward. So, one of the things that people have been just telling us is that they have to stop going on Facebook, because there are all these things being displayed there about how fabulous other people are, and they're thinking, "Well, why isn't my life working out so fabulously?"

Johanna:
So, those performative things that actually create unrealistic expectations are little bit toxic for people, and they're needing to withdraw from that and just be more aware of the realities of their lives. Also, making things work in the smaller parts of your life. I think it sounds really humble, but is actually one of the strategies that our participants are using.

Johanna:
We're also looking at how people sustain hope and mapping how people have hope. Sometimes it's just pie in the sky, sometimes it's based on a strategy. So, being able to support those more real strategies. Many times it is the realities about, okay, if you want to go end up in this kind of work, these are the kinds of educational qualifications you'll need. So, clear information about pathways through education can be really helpful in creating realism around hope that then enables people to move on. We're also just looking at quite creative ways in which people use their education to make where they are work for them.

Jim:
How would you categorize the two cohorts that you've been working with for a long period of time now, in terms of the differences between the two and then perhaps the commonalities that you've seen that span both groups?

Johanna:
Yeah, we're always looking to see what the generational differences are. I would say that cohort two, that's the ones who are in their early 30s right now, they've learned a lot from the previous generation. They are really very switched on to this need to be flexible. We're seeing in the data, they understand that things have changed and they're very aware of the ways in which jobs are becoming insecure. There needs to be a flip and think about how you respond to this insecurity in the world, and look at creating a narrative which helps you to be sure of where you're going and also use the resources that are available.

Johanna:
The first cohort that we analyzed, they left school in 1991, they got the shock of their lives. They did not expect what happened would happen. 1991 was when we actually had many, many, many more people. It was a surge into tertiary education, because that was the way forward, and they were hoping that would then, boom, security once you've done that, and it didn't happen. There was a huge recession, there was a huge change in policies, very huge shocks for that generation. They relied on family to grant a degree to some extent, because those were the only resources available.

Johanna:
But although there are differences in how they're managing these circumstances, we're actually a bit surprised. There's real synergy between the two generations around their concern about the environment. They see the environment crisis as being the biggest issue for Australia at the moment.

Johanna:
There was also synergy between the two generations in a lack of confidence in the political leaders at the minute, in financial institutions and large corporations. So, we are seeing in a sense some political convergence across the two generations, but at a finer grain level, how they manage their own lives and how they see the strategies that are needed for that are perhaps understandably a little different.

Jim:
How do you see this cohort that you're taking on now in terms of the pandemic and all three cohorts, really? None of us expected we'd be in this position, and even if we did predict a pandemic, we still can't see the way out of it. So, what would you think that schools really need to be focused on knowing what you've learned from the previous two cohorts about trying to deal with the lack of hope, I think, that I'm hearing? What should we be doing now to really focus on students in schools and people everywhere to make sure that we can get through this?

Johanna:
Yes, I think COVID will bring a lot of commonalities for people, but the next generation, the third one who are currently in year 11, they are facing a very deep shock, because the COVID pattern is ... well, it's going to be with us for quite a long time, and they've had in some respects a shock to their ownn education while they were at secondary school, not beyond.

But I think that the message is actually very similar across it all. What we are increasingly seeing is a need for there to be understandings that people can hold onto, that we're still part of a community, there is still support available and understanding that whatever the goalposts were for the previous generation, those goalposts have moved, and not to be too hard on yourself that you're not reaching that goal post. It's not anyone's fault.

Johanna:
Engendering a sense of confidence in making decisions about going forward that don't necessarily reflect the patterns of the past, and then knowing kinds of resources that can be put to bear on it. Where do I get support? Who do I talk to? How do I make sure I do that work? So community is going to be really important, school communities are going to be really important. All those skills around that we're talking about now in schools around mental health, physical health, couldn't be more important. So, it's the fine grain of that.

Jim:
I wonder whether that sense of belonging is now the most important issue for teachers, I suppose. Having been a principal for a long time and worked in school systems, it seems to me that students that are well-nurtured and have that sense of belonging and really know that they've got people sort of who care about them are actually going to be able to work through this pandemic better perhaps than those who are maybe disengaged and detached.

Jim:
That's where I wanted to just finally bring this in. I wonder what you've learned about that detachment, which I consider being, actually removing themselves from school, or disengagement, where they're just not committed to or be able to participate in schooling as well as they could. What do we know about those particular people in your study and have they been able to recover?

Johanna:
Yes, actually, you've hit the nail on the head there too, that schools can be a real source of anchoring and giving young people a sense of I belong here, I am heard here, I learn things here that are really important to me. That is probably one of the most important things that we can now do. The more we can do that, the better. Yes, it's a big struggle for people who feel disengaged, who feel they're not being heard in school or feel that they don't belong there.

Johanna:
It remains to be seen if the implications of that for this generation are more of concern than they were for previous ones. Eventually we found, eventually those young people who were early school leaders who were disengaged, they do make their way back, but it's hard and it may be too hard this time around for those who become disengaged during COVID. It is hard and it's a longer path, even then for those who were engaged. So, it's very important to ensure that we acknowledge all that diversity and the different needs of young people so they feel they belong.

Jim:
Look, I would love to talk about this for the next couple of hours, but I think it's fascinating to be able to follow the patterns of people's lives and just to understand what impact some of the things that we do in schools has on them. So yeah, it's a brilliant piece of work and obviously it's going to continue.

Jim:
So, thank you for today. I know it's been brief, but you've certainly given us a taste of what it is that you've been working on for a long period of time, and I really appreciate it and I'm sure our listeners have as well. So, thank you and keep going with this great work.

Johanna:
Will do. Thank you very much, Jim.

Genevieve:
Thank you, Jim and Johanna. I'm sure we'll all be looking forward to hearing more about the findings of the study over the next few years. You can find out more about Life Patterns at www.education.unimelb.edu.au/yrc.